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Poster: tim_oz Date: May 29, 2010 3:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 1968 Re-Date

Thanks for this information LIA. Further light shed in the darkened recesses of mystery surrounding the distant past of the Dead.

No doubt there will be further rounds of the 1/22 and 1/23 vs. 1/26 and 1/27 date discussion! Regardless of the date it was very exciting to get the additional 1/23 material on the '68 Road Trips release.

Intriguing to think of the Dead doing 'audience' taping at that time. If so it makes one wonder if they were thinking of using some of those tapes as part of the live elements on Anthem. This could have been the original conception of a SBD/AUD matrix tape if they considered blending the two on the album.

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Poster: Arck Date: May 31, 2010 6:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 1968 Re-Date

Ah yes - the 22/23 v 26/27 debate. My favourite dead horse!!!

I think the lack of evidence is conclusive: there were no 22nd and 23rd shows. There's no evidence that these shows took place beyond the labelling of some tapes. The tour itinerary makes sense with shows only on 26th and 27th.

My most recent "map" of The Quick and The Dead Pacific Northwest Tour is below. I've included notes on performances on official. The setlists are confirmed, unconfirmed and deduced from fragments floating around and my theories on the shows.

start of tour

[shows often regarded as 22nd and 23rd but poster and news media indicates only shows on 26th and 27th]

Jan 26th – Eagles Auditorium, Seattle WA – possibly complete show circulates

Alligator, TIFTOO> New Potato Caboose> Born Cross-Eyed> Spanish Jam> Dark Star> China Cat> The Eleven> Caution> Feedback> AWBYG

27th – Eagles Auditorium, Seattle WA – possibly complete show circulates
• Road Trips Vol. 2, No. 2 – two songs
• Road Trips Vol. 2, No. 2 bonus disc – five songs

Viola Lee Blues, BIODTL, Huts Me Too, TIFTOO> Clementine> New Potato Caboose> Born Cross-Eyed> Spanish Jam, Dark Star> China Cat> The Eleven, Lovelight

29th – PSC College Center Ballroom, Portland State College, Portland OR – no recording circulates

30th – EMU Ballroom, University Of Oregon, Eugene OR – one song circulates
• Road Trips Vol. 2, No. 2 bonus disc – one song

TIFTOO> New Potato Caboose, Gloria (as per DeadBase)

Feb 2nd – Crystal Ballroom, Portland OR – complete show circulates
• Road Trips Vol. 2, No. 2 – one song

Viola Lee Blues, TIFTOO> Clementine> Schoolgirl, Dark Star

3rd – Crystal Ballroom, Portland OR – complete show circulates

TIFTOO> New Potato Caboose, Hurts Me Too, Born Cross-Eyed> Jam, Schoolgirl, Dark Star> China Cat> The Eleven> Jam> Feedback

4th – Gym, South Oregon College, Ashland OR – no recording circulates

end of Pacific North West tour

Thoughts?

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Poster: light into ashes Date: May 31, 2010 1:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 1968 Re-Date

I don't think 2/2/68 is complete - it seems obviously incomplete.

I'd agree that our 1/22 is more likely 1/26. But I'll keep calling it 1/22 for ease of reference. (Just like I have to use, say, "5/5/67" rather than "unknown mid-'67".)

Then there's that snippet of Spanish jam labeled 1/27. Do you think it matches up with the cut Spanish jam from 1/23, or that it comes from another uncirculating show?

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Poster: Arck Date: May 31, 2010 6:10pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 1968 Re-Date

Yeah, you're right. The 2/02 show would be a bit small with just Viola Lee, TIFTOO> Clementine> Schoolgirl, Dark Star. That is a frightenly good setlist on paper already but I guess it could be missing a China Cat> Eleven> Lovelight and/or some Pigpen stuff. The Dark Star from Road Trips is clearly the end of the show, unless it too has been edited for the Road Trips release but that, even after some of the bizarre Road Trips edits, seems far fetched.

As for that 27/01 (sorry, I'm Australian and I'll get in a tangle putting the month first!!!) Spanish Jam fragment...well, i's difficult to be certain but I'm close to being sure it's from the "23/01" show. It makes sense that it would go with the a cut Spanish Jam on "23/01". I listened to both last night and I think the fragment fits fairly nicely with the "23/01" cut Spanish Jam. At the end of the cut Spanish Jam the band has only just moved into the genuine Spanish Jam riff. In the fragment the band is just hotting up that part of the riff. There's some music missing though: the parts don't dovetail perfectly.

My hesitation in being certain is that the sound quality was noticeably different between the two, at least on the copies I streamed last night but this is highly possible if the fragment tape was seperated and has a different lineage from the rest of the show.

That alone is not conclusive but there's more evidence (circumstantial as it may be). After reading the LMA comments under the Spanish Jam fragment, I listened to the end of the recording a few times. You can very faintly hear Jerry (I think) say "see you next time we're in Seattle". This tells us two things: barring any bizarre editing/patching in of another show's stage announcement, the Spanish Jam fragment is from Seattle.

Also, it shows that the Spanish Jam is from the end of the show, meaning the Road Trips "23/01" tracks probably comprise the first part of the show (and that my and deadlists' suggested setlist is off). It's feasible that the end of the show, for example having been recorded on a seperate reel, would have been lost or misplaced.

In conclusion, I guess it's impossible to be certain that the two bits of music fit together but it's very, very likely they do. Assuming the "23/01" tape is from Seattle and knowing the 27/01 fragment is and that the two are a feasible fit musically, I'd say we have a very probable match.

I think what I need to do is spend some time putting together a feasible setlist for the "23/01" show with Spanish Jam at the end. It shouldn't be too hard.

As for 22/23 v 26/27, I guess that's a bit of a meaningless discussion when there isn't really any proper evidence, aside from the posters. That's why I like it though - it's impossible to resolve so there's always scope for further discussion! For my own purposes, I assume there were only two shows on 26 and 27/01 but it really doesn't matter. I think two alternate conclusions we can make are that the "see you next time we're in Seattle" announcement suggests that either it was made at the 27/01 show or that if it was indeed from a show on 23/01, there were no more shows in Seattle on that tour, because it would be strange not to mention shows a few days later.

Of course, there's the possibility that there were indeed 22 and 23/01 shows and that 26 and 27/01 shows were scheduled subsequently (a bit like the Thee Image shows in Miami you discussed recently). I think that's unlikely though. This tour is reasonably well covered by tapes and the absence of tapes for 26 and 27/01 (aside from the Spanish Jam fragment), while by no means conclusive, is persuasive that there were only two shows in Seattle.

There really is something magical about this specific period of the Dead for me, more so than for any other period. It might be because the first Grateful Dead music I ever heard on record was Anthem Of The Sun, purchased in my early teens after seeing it discussed in a rock and roll documentary on TV. I think it's more than that. There is an incredible energy from this period: new material, played with conviction and emotion, to small crowds in relatively intimate venues, at shows that the band needed to play to put food on the table...wow. Just amazing stuff. It's hard to feel the same way about some of the interesting but plodding and measured music played later in the band's career. These guys were intense back then.

This post was modified by Arck on 2010-06-01 00:26:36

This post was modified by Arck on 2010-06-01 01:10:55

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: May 31, 2010 6:00pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 1968 Re-Date

"There really is something magical about this specific period of the Dead for me, more so than for any other period"

I couldnt agree with that more!

To my ears, nothing that the band performed before, or after, swings like Jan/Feb '68

And while I agree that most likely the only Seattle performances were on 1/26-27, Im not convinced the Spanish Jam that circulates as 1/23 is a partial of 1/27

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Poster: Arck Date: May 31, 2010 6:44pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 1968 Re-Date

Cliff, where do you think the Spanish Jam fragment might be from?

If we accept that it was performed in Seattle (as per the faint but audible "see you next time we're in Seattle" announcement at the end), the other obvious options (i.e. other Seattle shows in the period we know of) are the previous and subsequent Eagles Auditorium shows (September '67 and November 68').

I'm going to listen to the "23/01" cut Spanish Jam and the "27/01" Spanish Jam segments a few times to see if I can strengthen/weaken my belief that they're from the same performance. I'm sure if I want them to be from the same performance, I can convince myself of it (which is what I'm worried about).

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: May 31, 2010 6:48pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 1968 Re-Date

Years ago I spent hours doing an A-B analysis of those Spanish Jams and concluded they were not from the same performance. Not only does the source sound entirely different (not conclusive in and of itself), but I could not match-up a 4:48 passage during the 1/27 performance that I felt synchronized closely.

If your hypothesis is based solely on the confirmed Pacific Northwest rour dates, I'm not going to buy it. If you can point to a specific timing where the 1/23 partial locks-in to 1/27 file, you might be able to change my mind. After trying, I was unable to do that...

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Poster: Arck Date: May 31, 2010 8:51pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 1968 Re-Date

OK, I've just been comparing the end of the 23/01 snippet and the beginning of the 27/01 snippet. I'm still of the opinion they're the same performance. I put the sonic differences down to the following:

* The 23/01 has much more hiss. This is entirely possible if the two bits of tape have been separate for some time.
* The 27/01 recording is a flipped stereo image of the 23/01 recording. If you can reverse the channels when you listen to the 27/01 recording, they sound more similar: Jerry just to the right, Phil to the right, Bob just to the left. the drums to the left, the organ sporadically in the middle, the vocals (well, some chatter anyway) to the hard right

I think that musically they are similar, Pigpen is sporadic to non-existent on the organ in both and Jerry's guitar tone is very similar if not identical.

I think the 23/01 recording is more hissy due to being a later tape generation than the 27/01 recording, which accounts for the more condensed stereo image, which is, nevertheless, not inconsistent with the 27/01 recording's stereo image once you reverse the 27/01 recording's channels.

In other words, I can't point to a specific timing and, indeed, my hypothesis (that the 23/01 Spanish Jam is the end of one tape and that the 27/01 Spanish Jam is the beginning of another tape) necessitates some lost music in the middle. I don't believe there is any overlap.

This post was modified by Arck on 2010-06-01 03:51:11

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Poster: Arck Date: May 31, 2010 9:07pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 1968 Re-Date

It has just occured to me that, under my theory, the circulating "23/01", the circulating "27/01" fragment and the Road Trips Vol. 2 No. 2 "23/01" music should all match up sonically (subject to master tape vs later tape generation anomalies).

Thus a comparison between the "27/01" fragment and the Road Trips "23/01" stuff might be useful as well. I'll have to try this later.

Please try to knock down what I'm saying. I guess I'm just trying to prove something that is impossible to prove but I think there's more evidence in favour of what I'm saying than against it.

Feel free to chip in again LIA...

This post was modified by Arck on 2010-06-01 04:07:39

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: May 31, 2010 10:59pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 1968 Re-Date

Your theory is entirely based on the premise that there were only two performances in Seattle (1/26-27). However, it is a fact that the Tour of the Pacific Northwest began in Eureka on 1/20. It seems highly unlikely that there were no performances on the tour after that and prior to 1/26.

The fact that material included on an official release is credited to a 1/23 performance also seems to indicate the likelyhood of at least one performance during that week. And while I'm still enclined to believe that the only performances in Seattle were on 1/26-27, I dont see how you could rule out a show there on 1/23 based on the inconsistent information available...

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Jun 1, 2010 4:09am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 1968 Re-Date

I think it's VERY likely the 1/27 Spanish jam is a continuation of our 1/23 tape. Not certain, but it's my bet.

It picks up at ALMOST the same point in the music, with little missing. It's true that it makes for a very long Spanish jam - but consider, it's the last song of the show, and they do seem to be dragging it out quite a bit.

The sonic difference isn't that great. Remember my original post? A "3/31" recording, that sounds completely different from our 1/22 recording, nonetheless turned out to be exactly the same show, from a different source! And nobody could have known until Miller gave us the complete 1/22. And there, too, the Caution has that tapecut so we have a gap in there as well, and yet the two sources fit together eerily.

I agree that Garcia seems to be saying "see you next time we're in Seattle," though I can't make out the next words. That would limit the possible dates quite a bit, since any Spanish jam would have to be from this tour - in fact, it would limit it to the 27th.

As for dates - someone has to do a lot more research before it can be settled. There may be missing shows we don't know about. (The lostlivedead blog has turned up quite a few of those, that nobody suspected. Any little NW college might have a lost Dead show.) Unless something else fills in that week, there's a gap either way - from the 20th to the 26th, or from the 23rd to the 29th.
Personally I think the 22nd/23rd dating is wrong, in spite of it being the Dead's own labeling, because it was a Monday/Tuesday, and there's no newspaper evidence for those nights. But it's not a big deal to me....

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Jun 1, 2010 2:43pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 1968 Re-Date

Pure speculation!

And I guess Jer was holed up for five days at the Tacoma Holiday Inn smoking Acapulco Gold ;)

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: May 31, 2010 10:17pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 1968 Re-Date

"flipped stereo image?"

Now you are really grasping at straws!

Youve provided absolutely no sonic evidence that the music is from the same performance. Your hypothesis seems to be entirely based on the known tour dates in Seattle, when it's entirely possible that the Spanish Jam that circulates as 1/27, and/or the music from 1/22-23 could plausibly be from a entirely different date(s)/venue(s) alltogether (the way the band labeled and cared for recordings back then).

Naturally the music is going to be similar, Garcias guitar tone will be the same, Pigs contribution consistent, these are from the same tour, if not consecutive performances. And while the interpretations of Spanish Jam vary considerably from 1/17 through 2/14, if the partial of 1/23 was actually prior to, but from the same performance as the 1/27 recording, that would make it over 18 minutes in length. Certainly possible, but unlikely when the timings of the preceeding and following performances of Spanish Jam are significantly shorter.

To my ears, the performances of Spanish Jam from 1/23 and 1/27 sound quite different, and I'm not talking about the signature of the sources. To me they are entirely different interpretations.

David Gans included the 1/27 Spanish Jam in a GD Radio Hour program. Perhaps it might help you in your research...

http://www.dead.net/features/gd-radio-hour/grateful-dead-hour-no-1000

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Poster: jjoops Date: Jun 1, 2010 9:23am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 1968 Re-Date

http://jgmf.blogspot.com/2010/05/gd-at-eagles-auditorium-seattle-wa.html

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Jun 1, 2010 12:11pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 1968 Re-Date

That article lays it out very well. Good timing!

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Poster: Arck Date: Jun 1, 2010 3:32pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 1968 Re-Date

I'm of the opinion that, while nothing is 100% conclusive, the lack of any evidence of shows on 22 and 23/01, aside from the tape labelling, is pretty convincing on its own bearing in mind that other shows at Eagles Auditorium were covered quite extensively in local media.

Based on the articles, we can also conclude or extrapolate a couple of things about the 26 and 27/01 shows which, whatever else we think, must have occurred.

Lovelight started the show on 27/01 - this is not inconsistent with the Road Trips release including a Lovelight from "23/01", especially as the preceding Eleven does not segue into Lovelight. Rather than Eleven stops and is faded down and Lovelight sounds like a cold start. Not proof, just favourable circumstantial evidence.

It is also suggested there were multiple sets from QMS and the Dead at least at the 27/01 show - this is not particularly significant other than that it is (very, very) circumstantial evidence in favour of my 'Spanish Jam at the end of one tape and the beginning of another' proposal. If we have a look at what songs we have from "23/01" and "27/01", place Lovelight at the start, then construct one of several likely setlists, we get something like this:

Lovelight, Viola Lee Blues, BIODTL, Hurts Me Too, Dark Star> China> Eleven
(all of which appear on RTV2N2 and were apparently newly discovered), then...

TIFTOO> Clementine> New Potato Caboose> Born Cross-Eyed> Spanish Jam
(all of which were already in circulation before the recent discovery).

I realise this is completely arbitrary and that I have arranged the setlist to suit my argument but it proves that it's possible, i.e. that the newly discovered reel contained the 'first set', the existing reel contained most of the second set and that the "27/01" material is the end of Spanish Jam from the existing "23/01" tape.

Even if you don't accept the "27/01" fragment is the end of the Spanish Jam from "23/01", I think it's feasible that the newly discovered tape was set 1 and the existing tape was set 2.

I need a good chunk of time to expand on my Spanish Jam from "27/01" discussion but it's good to get further confirmation that the 26 and 27/01 shows did take place.

Just a thought: why is it that we have to assume the band played somewhere between 20/01 and 26/01? Is it not possible that the band played in San Francisco on 17/01, travelled to Eureka for the 20/01 show, returned to San Francisco for rehearsal, work on existing Anthem tapes, etc, then began the tour on 26/01? I know the poster proves the 20/01 show was part of the tour and that it's a bit odd to start a tour then stop for a week but there's no proof of any other shows between 20/01 and 26/01, whereas the rest of the tour is pretty full up.

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Jun 14, 2010 6:09pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 1968 Re-Date

I have spent a great deal of time on these shows from Jan/Feb 1968, both over the years and recently as well. Though there is a strong likelyhood that the performances dated 1/22-23 are actually 1/26-27, I cant subscribe to your hypothesis.

If the partial Spanish Jam dated 1/23 is from the same performance as that of what circulates dated 1/27, the combined timing of both incomplete portions is close to 19 minutes long. This would make the entire performance of the song well in excess of 20 minutes long. Likely 23 minutes or even significantly longer based on the fact that both partials are comprised almost entirely of concentrated theme play.

The timings of Spanish Jam during 1968:

1/17 - 15:50
1/20 - 10:10
1/22 - 10:04
2/14 - 12:28
2/23 - 7:23
3/30 - 9:52

Though it's possible, I think its pretty unlikely that the band performed a 20+ minute Sanish Jam on 1/27. The sources dated 1/23 and 1/27 have entirely different sonic signatures and there is absolutely no evidence that these partials are from the same performance, other than the circumstantial evidence of the confusion over the real dates and venues of the performances.